CHAOS

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=sci.physics,+%22CHAOS%22&hl=en&sa=G&scoring=d

1 "Nathan Skinner" CHAOS woensdag 13 maart 2002 21:38
2 "JosephShore23" Re: CHAOS donderdag 14 maart 2002 8:03
3 "Nathan Skinner" Re: CHAOS zaterdag 16 maart 2002 7:00
4 "Nicolaas Vroom" Re: CHAOS zondag 17 maart 2002 12:19


1 CHAOS

Van: "Nathan Skinner"
Onderwerp: CHAOS
Datum: woensdag 13 maart 2002 21:38

I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought.

Simplified example:

Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it.
However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system.

-Nathan Skinner


2 CHAOS

Van: "JosephShore23"
Onderwerp: Re: CHAOS
Datum: donderdag 14 maart 2002 8:03

In article <4539bdcf.0203131238.2f8a2943@posting.google.com>, skinner109@yahoo.com (Nathan Skinner) writes:

> I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought.

Simplified example:

Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it. However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system.

-Nathan Skinner

The ball falls to the bottom contiuously in a random fashion, not ultimately, and it never does so chaotically. And what's so infamous about the bell curve except if you were on the wrong part of it in school? The bell curve, in any case, is not a result of choas.
JS


3 CHAOS

Van: "Nathan Skinner"
Onderwerp: Re: CHAOS
Datum: zaterdag 16 maart 2002 7:00

thanks for all your disparaging remarks. I'm sure they have made you famous with your friends. You can only sound more ignorant to deny something with as much significance as the bell curve that shows up more than its share in nature. If you don't have anything to add to a conversation, stay out. Don't waste your time pestering high-schoolers on science newsgroups.

josephshore23@aol.com (JosephShore23) wrote in message news:<20020314020353.10391.00000245@mb-cm.aol.com>...
> In article <4539bdcf.0203131238.2f8a2943@posting.google.com>, skinner109@yahoo.com (Nathan Skinner) writes:
> >

I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought.

Simplified example:

Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it. However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system.

-Nathan Skinner

>

The ball falls to the bottom contiuously in a random fashion, not ultimately, and it never does so chaotically. And what's so infamous about the bell curve except if you were on the wrong part of it in school? The bell curve, in any case, is not a result of choas.
JS


Van: "Nicolaas Vroom"
Onderwerp: Re: CHAOS
Datum: zondag 17 maart 2002 12:19

"Nathan Skinner" schreef in bericht news:4539bdcf.0203131238.2f8a2943@posting.google.com...
> I'm wondering if chaos really exists.

That is an interesting question.
If you do a search with google: Butterfly Chaos http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&q=Butterfly+chaos you will find many hits.
For example: http://www.mindconnection.com/_links/lnkchaostheory.htm That means for many people it makes sense.

You can also ask similar questions:
Is there uncertainty (Does it exists)
Is there Brownian movement (Does it exist)

The first step, if you want to answer those questions, is that you clearly must define what you mean i.e. the word chaos.

Let me start with an example.
You drop with a machine from a fixed height an "absolute" round ball on an "absolute" flat surface. What will happen?
Your ball wil bounce a couple of times and will come to rest straight under the place where it was dropped.

You drop a second ball.
What will happen?
The second ball will "fly" almost in any direction.
The first ball will "roll" almost in any direction.

Instead of a round ball use cubes on a rough surface. What will happen?
If you do it carefull you can build a tower.

In stead round balls use sand. What will happen?
You will build a sandpile.
If you do it for a long time you will see avalanches along the sides of your sandpile.

In stead of sand use something else and observe if you see avalanches.

All the above examples are physical processes.
My line of reasoning is that by performing experiments you can try to understand them, predict the future and by making modifications (to the real world) you can change the outcome.

In stead of your general question: Is their chaos You can also ask specific questions:
Is our solar system chaotic? (Is their chaos within our solar system)
Are stars chaotic ?
Are galaxies chaotic ?
Is the universe chaotic ?

Each star has a rather similar behaviour. The star is born (out of a gas cloud), planets form, the star matures, explodes and becomes a white dwarf. (something like that..)
One very important parameter is the mass of a star.
For a star of our Sun this process takes 10 billion years we are now at the middle point (+ or - something)
Can you call that total process chaotic ?
Can you call a small section of that process chaotic ?
(The last 5000 years on our planet ?)

One thing what you can do is to simulate the behaviour of the planets using a model.
For example: Newton's Law or GR.
Now you enter the realm of mathematics.
How ever you have to be carefull: The outcome of your computations have to be in agreement (if possible) with observations.
Second your model can be a simplified case of the reality as such predictions into the future have to be handled with care.

> I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought.
In relation to chaos I will not answer this question.

On the other hand in general by performing and improving experiments we can improve our knowledge and produce new and better products.

Still there are many issues and questions we will never be able to answer.

> Simplified example:

Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped.

Yes
> Initially, the ball acts chaotically.
The path of each ball, in the area where the pegs are, each time is different.
> It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random.
Yes.
> There's no way to predict it.
Yes
> However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system.
Correct. Your point of course is that the behaviour of each indivudual item is completely different as the behavior of the whole.
However each time when you perform this experiment the outcome will be (macroscopic) different.

My question to you:
If you perform this ^identical^ experiment 1000 times do you learn then something ?
IMO the answer is NO.
If you want to learn something than you have to change the "settings".

Nick http://users.pandora.be/nicvroom/


Created: 24 March 2002

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